THE RIGHT SIDE BIAS

Comments (123)

1. “train the chassis”. I like it.

2. steve do your 2 bolt cleat shims work with speedplay frog cleats?
   also do you have longer cleat bolts that will work with frog cleats as
   the bolt head is smaller and shaped differently.

   thanks

   1. G’day Matt,
      No on both counts unfortunately. What has stopped me
      developing a Frog shim is that they are so different and there hasn’t been
      enough demand to date. Speedplay are developing a new 2 bolt cleat mtb style
      pedal and when that sees the light of day, I’ll reassess the situation.
      **

3. Hi Steve, if you are looking for more topics to put here – you can consider to re-publish your Bicycling Australia articles here, on pedals, handlebars, saddles, frame geometries,etc.

   1. Hi Yuri – We are working on adding some of Steve’s articles and a lot more… Stay tuned.

4. hi steve,

   i’m trying to figure out if i should shim my left shoe or not. i have an 18mm short tibia verified by xray and do drop my left hip significantly when i have no shims.
   
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZZ5Q__rBxA

   when i shim 5mm, which is what i was told to do from my professional bike fitter (who used Retul, but acknowledged it was merely a tool in his box rather than an end-all, be-all magic solution), i think my hip drop is less pronounced but there is still a rocking motion.
   
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7VLQraTC4w

   the other problem is that the shimming feels incredibly awkward. without shims, my legs spin fluidly. with them, i feel like i have a hitch in the left pedal stroke. not sure if i just need to “get over it” because i’ve been pedaling asymmetrically for 10 years, or if the hitch is a sign that it’s not the solution.

   my retul report after the fitting showed that, even with shims, my left hip still had more vertical motion (44m) than my right hip (27mm) and the left foot had 20 degrees of ankling while the right had 11 degrees. so asymmetry still seems to be pretty apparent.

   without shims, my right thigh nearly touches my belly when i use a stem with a lot of drop but the left thigh doesn’t even come close. with shims, they are a lot closer to touching my belly.

   my pain only comes with high effort cycling (80% or higher) and is comprised of left calf spasms, left achilles pain, and the left lateral/distal hamstring attachment pain. nothing on right side ever, no back pain ever.

   i’m using esoles and do some strengthening, mostly single leg stuff. not a ton of core. my athletic trainers have me doing kettlebell swings, dead lifts, turkish getups, and rope work like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJg6DXrKqB0.

   i use an ISM saddle which i love. used to use a standard saddle and would sit with my pelvis off to the left. not sure if that was to take pressure of the perineum or because i was subconsciously “correcting” for my LLD.

   the other factor that comes into play is that i had a running-related upslip on the left side of my pelvis that was undiagnosed for 6 years. prior to that, i was a fairly elite amateur triathlete. have not been able to run or ride much without pain since. the upslip has been corrected now, but occasionally i’ll have a re-upslip or an anterior rotation that gets addressed by a local athletic trainer. i do not run much any more (except in triathlon races) due to recurring left achilles/calf pain with running. so i still race but i usually get hurt and need a month to recover afterward.

   am experimenting with a 3mm full-length shoe insert in casual use from my athletic trainer. i think it makes my calf feel less stressed, but i feel like it causes my left hamstring to be tight/sore at the proximal insertion, which is a pain i’ve never had before i used the insert. my left hamstring has always been less flexible than the right – retul guy put left hamstring flexibility at 65 degrees and right at 78 degrees while laying on my back. have been working only recently on the left side flexibility after reading your posts.

   do you think this is a leg length issue, a core stability issue, or a firing issue? this has been ongoing for 7 years and i’ve had numerous bike fittings from “world renowned” people. no fitter has ever paid attention to my pelvis that i know of.

   1. G’day Eric,
      While I’m sympathetic to your plight, you’ve sent me a 600
      word history / question with 5 video clips to look at. This goes far beyond
      what I’m prepared to do for free via the Comments section. Additionally, you
      are missing some crucial perspectives that would enable me to advise you
      properly.

      What I will say is this. Is the 18mm difference in femur length also the
      difference in leg length?
      Have you addressed the 18mm difference in femur length off the bike?
      As in do you have built up shoe on the left foot for walking?

      If you don’t, you have spent your life training your body to function
      asymmetrically. Like most of us, you spend far more time off the bike than
      you do on the bike meaning that the way that you function off the bike
      (uncorrected substantial difference in leg length with consquential
      compensatory patterns evoked, all of which work by *increasing *asymmetry)
      sets the scene for how you function on the bike. To gain an effective
      solution on the bike, your functional symmetry off the bike needs to be
      addressed as a starting point.

      If you do elect to proceed further, contact me privately via
      pedalpushers@bigpond.com

5. Hello Steve,
   Where would i find one of these indoor trainers you speak of? I’v searched and can’t find them. Thanks, D.

   1. G’day Duane,
      I’m about to leave for an Easter holiday and won’t be back
      until the 27th. I’ve had my Sidea’s for over 10 year but should still have
      their contact details at work. Once I get back I’ll pass them on.

6. Hi Steve,

   I naturally sit asymmetrically on the saddle, with the crack of my butt about 6mm to the left of the saddle midline.

   When I force myself to sit centered, while a little unnatural for now, the bike actually feels more centered (easier to ride no hands, for example). At the same time, however, I feel more pressure on my left sit bone. I assumed this meant that my left sit bone is larger, but after reading your blog I wonder whether it is a roll or yaw of my pelvis.

   Now here is another observation for comparison: when I sit on a flat-seated wooden chair with my feet held off the ground, I also feel more pressure on my left sit bone. On the bike saddle, shifting left compensates for uneven sit bones, but this is not the case for a flat-seated chair.

   So, my questions are: do you ever encounter people with uneven sitbones, for example as they are drawn in the figure at the top of this blog entry? If so, how do you differentiate between asymmetries of the bone vs tilting of the pelvis? The remedies for asymmetrical bone I have thought of are i) rolling the saddle by shimming the rails (I think a couple degrees would do it) or ii) switching to a conformable saddle such as Brooks leather type. Got any others?

   Thanks for your blog! Jason

   For completeness, here are the causes for my off-center sitting that I have rejected:
   * systematic chamois cut, fit or degradation
   * leg/glute mass asymmetry
   * bike/saddle asymmetry
   * genital asymmetry
   * favoring saddle sores or scars
   * favoring leg by strength or handedness
   * skin sensitivity asymmetry

7. G’day Duane,
   I’m not back at work yet but contacted an email acquaintance, Darren Crisp re Sidea as I’m chasing a few small spare parts for mine. ( see http://www.crisptitanium.com/crisp_inglese.htm ). Darren provided the following info:
   http://www.sideaita.it/sb4/sb4particolari.htm

   It is their specific website for the trainer. If you click at the bottom of the page RICHIEDI PREVENTIVO PERSONALIZZATO it will open up an email page for you to request a quote or ask a question.

   The main company website is: http://www.sideaita.it/ , there is a lot there.

   sidea@sideaita.it is the email for quotes and info request.

8. G’day Jason,
   Do I ever encounter people with uneven sitbones?
   I read somewhere once that 0.5% of the population have what is known as a small hemipelvis; 1 in 200. I’ve seen it but for fit clients at least, it seems to be a lower incidence than that . I’ve had fit clients who were aware of the problem before ever I met them and the asymmetry had been verified by x ray or similar. I remember one in particular because firstly, he was a radiologist and secondly, he had had the hamstring on one side torn off the ischium taking a chunk of bone with it. It was reattached but an osteophyte developed subsequently leaving him with an ischium that hung 16mm below the other. There is a larger (though still very small) number where I suspect it but don’t know it.

   How do I differentiate between asymmetries of the bone vs tilting of the pelvis?
   If I suspect a small hemi pelvis, I do as you did; I sit the subject on a flat wooden stool with their legs dangling without weight bearing and check from the rear what the relative heights are of their sacro iliac joints and iliac crests. If they are not even, then it is likely that that there is a size difference between each ilium.

   How do I get around the problem?
   If it looks genuinely like a bone size difference, the method I currently use is to fit an American Classic J post. These can be tilted to either side of the long axis of the seat by 6 – 7 degrees before the seat rail clamping bolt is tightened and then locked in that position. The bolt torque needs to be checked from time to time though. This solution only works for frames that take a round 27.2mm or 31.6mm post. In between sizes can use a 27.2mm with Wheels Manufacturing shim to make it fit. If using an integrated seat mast or a proprietary non round post, then the solution (once an x ray or similar confirms what the problem is) it to build up the appropriate side of the seat to square the pelvis. Anything suitable can be used as a trial and once the ideal heigh tof build up is confirmed, I get the seat recovered with extra height of dense foam placed on the appropriate side. I have only ever had to do this a handful of times in many thousands of fit clients though.

   Before trying any of these solutions, it is imperative that you have a scan or x ray to determine whether there is a difference between right and left sides of the pelvis. Most people who experience what you have related have a functional or measurable leg leg length difference; not an obvious pelvic asymmetry of bone size. At least that is my experience to date.

   1. Thanks Steve,

      I added 2.5mm to my left Speedplay cleat and this has pushed me back to center on the saddle (I just used an old baseplate, in fact). It has made not only my rides but the whole of my days better. For many of us a relaxing, distracting ride is the foundation to a good day. Amazing what a little chunk of plastic can do.

      I realize now that small leg length differences could have big impacts on sitting squarely. As an analogy, when we build a wheel, first we worry about roundness, and once that is achieved, then we worry about trueness. This is because, with opposite-side spokes being nearly parallel, an epsilon adjustment in spoke length causes an epsilon change in roundness but a *larger* lateral displacement in the rim. Well, legs are also nearly parallel, and while they have more ability to compensate by bending then a spoke does, the geometry is very similar. So difference in leg length is probably *amplified* in its impact on where we sit on the saddle.

      I think I have more work to do to figure out what exactly I have fixed, and if this shim is actually the best solution. But for now, with limited time, it is an improvement at least.

      I admire your unparalleled diligence in this field.

      Jason

      1. G’day Jason,
         I’m happy for you that you’ve got a result, at least for the moment. And thanks for the positive thoughts. Don’t rule out the possibility of further adaptation on your part from the effects of the shim. You’re right about small leg length differences (whether functional or measurable) potentially having a large impact on ability to sit square on the seat. This is why approximately 70% of clients of mine leave with a shim. I don’t pretend for a moment that 70% of people have a measurable LLD but it is fundamental for performance, injury reduction and comfort that the pelvis be as square as possible on the seat.

         Best of luck.

9. I’ve received a response. Trainer discontinued.

   1. G’day Duane,
      That’s a pity. It might explain why they are slow with
      spares. Both of mine are more than 10 years old, still going strong and have
      been really good. I need some cosmetic spares but can live without.

10. Steve can you comment on he videos above. I know the second gentleman was having pain where the others also. What did you do to fix them on the bike and did that change there movement pattern from the rear or just help them compensate. A related question. Dose riding to high for years cause an exaggeration of this dominance to one side and lead to lateral pelvic tilt? Thanks Bill

    1. G’day Bill,
       I’m at home at the moment without access to the detailed records I keep so I’ll answer from memory. Firstly, all 3 people had a problem, which is why they sought help. The clips are ‘before’ shots, not ‘after’. I didn’t keep the ‘after’ footage as I only took these so the client in case could visualise what was happening and what I was seeing. In each case it was ‘news’ to them. When there is a fundamental instability of the pelvis when ycling, it affects every other aspect of the riders position because the pelvis is the foundation.

       Each leg will reach a different distance to the pedal through a different plane of movement. One side of the torso will reach further towards the bars than the other or one shoulder will be thrust further forward or one elbow is more locked than the other and so on and so on. So pelvic symmetry on a bike is a big deal.

       However, NOBODY sits *perfectly* squarely on the seat. With functionally superior riders, the tendency to pelvic asymmetry will be hard to see and near imperceptible. With the whole pelvic instability thing, often it is impossible to know which is the chicken and which is the egg. That is: Is the way the rider functions off the bike cause them to sit like this on the bike?
       OR
       Is the way the rider functions on the bike cause or play a major part in their issues off the bike?

       My feeling is that it is usually the former because there is a rough correlation between how people function off the bike and how they function on the bike. There are exceptions though, where it is the other way around and that I can only speculate about.

       Basically, with each of the 3 clients highlighted in those clips, I could not get them sitting perfectly squarely. What I was able to do was to moderate the basic pattern noticeably. So they were still doing the same thing (because of left / right postural, functional and neurological imbalances but to a much lesser degree. I can’t change people, I can only change the way that they relate to the bike. What I’m saying is that if Quasimodo wanted to be bike fitted, he would still be a twisted hunchback post fit, but would be able to ride further or faster or both before the onset of pain because I would identify and remove (if possible) or moderate (if not possible to remove) any challenges to his position.

       My aim is always to allow the rider to do what they want to do at the intensity they want to do it 99% of the time without unnecessary pain or discomfort. If the rider’s ambitions exceed their functional abilities, then there is work to be done by them to improve how they function generally and I give a lot of advice about that. Twisted and bent people off the bike don’t suddenly turn into symmetrically functioning athletes when they get on a bike.

       To answer your question re pelvic tilt. Possibly but don’t know in your case. 96% of the bike fit clients I see have a lateral pelvic tilt when standing. In 90% the pelvic tilt will disappear (if no LLD) or moderate noticeably (if there is an LLD) if the client does nothing more than stand tall. That is lift their chest and extend their neck. To do this causes extension in the lumbar spine and a hollowing of the abdomen. In turn this causes the deep abdominal muscles that provide indirect support for the lumbar spine (which has limited direct support) to engage. Once that happens, the proprioceptive info from the lower body arrives at the cerebellum ‘louder and more clearly’. The lumbar spine is the conduit for proprioceptive feedback from the pelvis, legs and feet. If lumbar support is compromised, the signals are still generated and received but not in a way that the cerebellum pays attention to because those signals don’t stand out from the massive oversupply vs processing capacity. If the lumbar spine is supported the ‘CPU’ is acting with more complete info and lateral pelvic tilts improve markedly because of this greater awareness of what the lower body is doing. This can also be done through the feet or through changing visual processing (with coloured filters) in most cases but THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT EXERCISE THAT EVERYONE OVERLOOKS AND IGNORES DAILY, IS TO TRAIN THEMSELVES TO STAND AND SIT TALL.
       Otherwise gravity beats us down into our own personal version of postural dysfunction increasing any tendency to asymmetry along the way.

       Assuming the rider does improve their standing and sitting posture off the bike, which all should do anyway if they want to live a long healthy life, they won’t be able to maintain that lumbar support on the bike because (possibly Olympic gymnasts aside) they will need to flex their lumbar spines to reach forward to the handlebars. That means that to gain clear proprioceptive feedback from the feet through which we transfer power to the bike ( and in standing posture are our means of interacting with Planet Earth) the cant of the feet and the arch support of the feet must be (individually) perfect to ensure that accurate receptions of proprioceptive info. That is where my testing protocol comes in because it is the only way to achieve certainty with this matter. I’m keen to teach it but it is hard to learn and I will only pass on to the ‘right’ people. I’m talking to a few at the moment in the U.S and something may happen there. Not sure yet.

       1. Steve thank you very much for the reply. I have posted stand and sit tall reminders at work and at my sons work space.

          If you assume the cant and foot support are correct.(Big if ) If the rider still functions like one of the riders above with the dropping right pelvis can I assume there is only a couple of possible problems? 1. The seat is relatively to high for the right leg. (functionally tight or literally short), pelvic asymmetry( functional or anatomic), or a combination of both? That if the issue is the seat height it should significantly decrease if the saddle is dropped low enough.

          Thanks
          Bill

       2. G’day Bill,
          Working on the assumption that foot correction is ideal on each side, there are a finite number of reasons that a rider will continue to drop the right hip. They fit into 3 categories; Positional Challenges, Functional Challenges and Neurological Challenges.

          Positional Challenges that may play a part are:
          Seat setback being grossly too little or too much. Seat height being too high. The reach out or down to the bars being to great. Any combination of the above.

          Functional Challenges that will cause this are:
          Tighter hip flexors on the right side; particularly the psoas. A much tighter hamstring on the right side. A jammed up right sacro iliac joint. A shorter right leg. A noticeably smaller right foot giving a functional LLD.

          Neurological Challenges that will play a part or be the cause are:
          A pattern of left cerebella hemispheric motor control dominance; i.e. an overt and obvious ‘wired in’ tendency to favour the right side of the body. Any major muscle groups that don’t fire properly on the left side leading to autonomic tendency to favour the right side. The spatial awareness component of vision from one eye (usually but not always the non dominant eye) not being processed well leading to a skewed awareness of the riders’ position in space and a whole lot of other stuff that I see from time to time but
          that is relatively rare.

          I don’t want to make this seem more complex than it is. I find that a large part of this with many people is poor flexibility in key areas. How flexible are you? Are there any obvious differences between range of motion in hips and lower back between sides?

          Do you stretch often? On a 1 – 10 scale, how hard do you stretch?

       3. Steve
          Thank you for the great reply. I have fixed the seat height issue which is now 20 mm !! lower than my previous fit. (I filmed myself from the rear at old seat height and it was unbelievable how much movement there was. You could read the label on the seat on one side. I rode thousands of miles like this over the past several years with various pains. When I was fit they never looked at my hips just pulled out the goniometer) Your video update on seat height was great. It might be useful to also see a normal but I think I have it from videoing the obvious change between my new and old.
          I suspect as you have suggested that poor flexibility with tight hip flexors, ITB, and psoas is contributing as especially the psoas and rectus femoris is tight both sides and much of my ability to touch my toes is from a flexible low back not hamstring flexibility. I was stretching daily but for short periods and falling into stretching to hard. I have increased stretching to twice daily and decreased intensity 3 to 4 out of 10 for 30 to 60 seconds as well as using a foam roller.
          Regardless of how low I go with seat ht the hip still drops just not as far and have resorted to a 6 mm Shim on the side opposite the hip drop which makes me feel more even. I now have no loss of fluidity through either pedal stroke but can not get both feet to feel solid and square on the pedals. I suspect this is because of the hip asymmetric movement? I will keep working at it. I am though riding more pain free and a little faster.
          Thanks!
          Bill

       4. G’day Bill,
          I’m really happy for you that you got a result or at least a large improvement in comfort and fluency. Yes, keep working on the stretching. Keep the intensity low and the duration of the stretch reasonably long.

          Your experience with seat height is what I see every day with fit clients. I won’t say all are too high, just most.

          You probably don’t need to stretch twice a day. More likely 3 times a week for a whole of body routine. If I haven’t mentioned it previously, Flexibility for Cyclists available from ww.humanperformancecenter.com is a good value and great program. Get the strap that goes with the book.

          Re the continued by lesser right hip drop. It could be any number of things. Time and again I see this tendency moderate or disappear in people who take their stretching seriously. As well as increasing range of motion, every time you stretch a proprioceptive charge is sent up the spine to the brain in effect saying “Remember me?” from the area being stretched. The more information the CNS receives from any particular part of the body, the more space the brain devotes to that area. The more body aware we become, the squarer we sit on the bike. In the meantime, it sounds like you have done the right thing with the shim. If you are pedaling more smoothly and are experiencing less discomfort, you are certainly on the right track. At least for now.

          Best of luck and keep it up. It is never too late to start the process of structural self improvement.

11. Another approach to look at postural asymmetries or muscular imbalances off (and on) the bike would be to visit a massage therapist trained in neuromuscular technique for a postural analysis. This will identify the imbalances that we all have for all of the reasons that Steve has explained and can help with the proipreceptive retraining and lengthening of short muscles.

    If a muscle is “locked short”, it will stop it’s opposing muscle from firing (think quads vs hamstrings or hip flexors vs glutes). When this happens, other muscles who are only meant to be “helping” take over the movement pattern, they get stressed and the cycle of compensation continues. In addition to this, the opposing inhibited muscles can become “overstretched”, developing trigger points which refer pain to other areas of the body and prevent other muscles from functioning properly.

    You cannot strengthen an inhibited muscle that isn’t firing properly until the short opposing muscle is lengthened and the inhibition removed, until this happens through remedial massage or stretching, you are trying to work against spinal reflexes and neurological laws!

    1. Hear hear!!!

       You’ve made me realise my own shortcomings Megan……….even more than my
       wife Margaret. I’ve had about 3 massages in my life and forget to mention
       massage therapists far too often when suggesting people seek help. I have
       seen the before and after of numerous clients who were fortunate enough to
       have found superior massage help and the differences can be large.

12. Hi Steve,

    I guess this might be the best place to ask this question, as I have a feeling that the answer could be related to this post…

    Watching Le Tour (and practically every other race broadcast on EuroSport – much to my wife’s dismay), I notice that when you see the shot back to the group from the leading bike, a large number of riders pedal knee-in (and to-in) on the left side. Some that spring to mind as really obvious are Sastre, Horner, and Hoogerland (and lord only knows how Stefano Garzelli manages to ride more than half a mile without crippling injury). But there’s a long list of people to just tend to that side a little. And seemingly none that I notice do so with only the right side.

    Given that the aforementioned guys have obviously got quite handy at pedaling their bikes, is this something that only needs correcting in some people? Do you think [know] if some of these guys have an extra regime of stretching and strengthening to try to try and prevent ITB problems?

    1. G’day Matt,
       Good question. My wife has banned me from cable TV (for
       obvious reasons) so I can’t comment about the riders you mention
       specifically. Often when a riders pedalling technique on one side is
       unusual, it is a compensation for what they are doing or not compensating
       for on the other side. This isn’t the case 100% of the time, but certainly
       in the majority.

       What your observation highlights, and my own experience with the pros we see
       is that as a group they have the same structural and functional deficiencies
       as the rest of the cycling population. But they are self selecting. If they
       couldn’t do what they do, they wouldn’t be there doing it! We don’t get to
       see the ones who functioned similarly but fell by the wayside. They also are
       protected by age to some extent. All of us can do things at 25 that we
       struggle with at 50.

       Is it something that only needs correcting in some people?
       No, but there is a spectrum of individual experience. One of the things
       about bike fitting that constantly amazes me is that if I see say, 20 riders
       with the same basic issue, 1 will be in such pain that they can’t ride much
       at all. At the other end of the spectrum will be another who exhibits the
       same degree of asymmetry but isn’t even aware of it because there is zero
       pain, with the rest scattered along the continuum. What makes the experience
       of the extremes at each end differ so much?

       I’ve been pondering that for more than 20 years and am no closer to an
       answer.

       I had a pro from a well known team comment to me earlier this year that he
       couldn’t believe how many of the pro peleton sat askew on their seats. My
       reply was “Well, so do you”.

       Some of this stuff can be addressed with a good bike position and an
       increase in proprioceptive clarity from the feet but much of it can only be
       addressed off the bike. My experience is that the people who do need to
       address underlying structural issues of this kind off the bike fall into 4
       categories.
       Category 1 doesn’t really give a damn because nothing hurts enough (yet) for
       them to bother.

       Category 2 is the largest and they are the ones who are trying to do
       something about their issues once identified but struggle to find health
       professionals with enough interest, insight or both to help them.

       Category 3 are the lucky ones who are highly motivated and / or lucky enough
       to find health professionals with the interest and insight to advise and
       help the resolve their problems.

       Category 4 are the ones for whom a degree of their problems are permanent
       and a result of congenital or developmental issues. One Cat 4 problem that I
       see from time to time is where the S1 vertebra is fused on one side to S2
       (as it should be) but not on the other side. A person formed like this from
       birth will never sit squarely on the seat and can only attempt manage their
       problem, as it will never be totally resolved.

       Do the pros stretch etc. The info I get is that plenty do and plenty don’t.
       The ones that do often marvel at how the ones that don’t get by without it.
       Again, self selection is the only answer that makes sense.

13. Steve,

    I have a right side bias which is obvious to me because my right knee extends about 1-2 cm further forward than the left on the top of the pedal stroke. A few years ago I had a bike fit done with a very reputable bike fitter and for some reason he thought I had a LLD and added a few mm of shims under my left cleat. I should point out that he made me a set of custom footbeds because I have low arches and canted my Speedplay cleats. Nevertheless, I still have a noticeable right side bias. My question is if I never had a LLD and only a RSB would the shims under my left foot make the RSB better or worse and how can I truly know if I have a LLD? Also, I should I begin to address the RSB? Thanks,

    -Kevin

    P.S. I have not pain issues and ride 4-6 days a week 3-5hrs/day in mountainous terrain. I no longer race but would still consider myself extremely fit.

    1. G’day Kevin,
       Knowledge is power. Before suggesting anything, I think you should establish once and for all whether you have a leg length difference. A scan or X ray properly taken will determine that. Once you have done that, get back to me and let me know the result and we’ll go from there.

14. i started cycling again the last couple of years and knew i was out of shape as when i cycled out of the road i was starting to increase my breath, panting. I thought more cycling was needed and picked up a little knee pain, thinking it was old age and arthritis (50 a couple of days ago) At the start of this year i trained every day for 10/20 mins exercises and since cycling have found i can travel further and have forgotten about my leg pain. It seems strange to train with leg squats put the body under pressure and yet the pain has moved on. Reading your blog puts it all in to perspective that regular exercise is the key and now i need to add stretching to my list.
    Thanks Steve on a helpful and informative site

    1. G’day Vincenzo,
       You’re welcome. I’m glad that cycling has converted you. Onward and upward!

15. Hi you recently helped me with a fit issue but i am still having a problem
    with my left knee hitting the top tube and my left ankle kicking out at the bottom of thr pedal stroke from three oclock to nine ish.
    I have had a standing xray and there is a 3mm diffrence at the ball joint the right leg is shorter so i was wondering if the shorter leg is pulling me across the saddle and there for actually making my left leg shorter?
    I have read that its not worth shimming a minor leg lenth difference and you should move the cleat forward on the shorter leg does this sound ok or would i be better shimming the cleat?

    Thanks for any info great blog!

    1. G’day Danny,
       I don’t agree with what you have read. A small leg length
       discrepancy is one part of the picture and it is only small if the standing x ray is taken attentively. That is if care was taken to ensure that you were standing with knees locked out and torso extended. I’ve seen multiple x rays of the same person return values of the relative discrepancy in leg length difference that varied by up to 10mm. Sloppy work is common in all fields and while what I am saying may not apply to your x rays it has to be considered as a possibility.

       In addition to the apparently small discrepancy, there is the effects of common asymmetries that most people have as well as any forced upon you by a life time of compensating for the difference. These things may add or subtract a functional component to the measurable difference. So ensure that any measure you take such as shim use allows you to feel like you are pedaling evenly between sides.

       With the possible exception of midfoot cleat position, I am not a fan of differential cleat position as a measure to accommodate a difference in leg length. My experience is that it is far better to use a shim. Small differences in cleat position on each side, relative to foot in shoe, make disproportionate differences to our muscle engagement patterns on each side. You imply that the longer left leg is the problem leg. Read the posts on seat height. As the post above explains, most people when presented with a
       Challenge to their position from any source will compensate asymmetrically
       with the great majority favouring the right side at some cost to the left
       side. Too high a seat height is the most common easily avoided Challenge I
       come across.

       Best of luck.

16. Hi Steve,

    I’ve just come across your website and I’m amazed at how much information you make available to the public…

    The more I read and listen to bike fitters the more confused I get. I’ve been riding/racing for approx 5 years and it’s only just recently somone suggested putting a shim in my left shoe as my left leg is shorter than my right as I broke my right femur years ago (traction increased the length slightly). However there didn’t seem to be a lot of science behind the reasoning or how thick the spacer should be.
    I’ve also had my pedal stroke analysed and again the left side is less effective than the right and the spacer didnt improve that. However after reading some of your articles I focused on the right hip position and as if by magic my pedal stroke evened out.

    So firstly thanks again for making your articles available on your website. Secondly as I live in Brisbane how do I find a bike fitter that I can trust and really understands and can address these small problems.

    Regards

    Martin

    1. G’day Martin,
       Don’t be amazed. What is on the site is conceptual stuff that works. However it only the tip of the metaphorical iceberg when it comes to individual cases. I’m glad that you found an improvement after acting on what you read or deduced from the site.

       Re Brisbane; I get a steady stream of clients flying down which leads me to believe that the state of bike fitting there is not what it could be. Not touting for biz but there is no one up there I can recommend first hand.

17. Steve,

    Do those with “right side bias” and/or LLD (short right leg) typically benefit from a lower saddle? (As a way to eliminate the compensation for the right side bias/LLD?) Or at least until they have adapted to sitting more squarely on the saddle…

    Because wouldn’t some with a right side bias/LLD continue to favor the short side which is usually the ride side even if the short leg is shimmed? (if the saddle were a bit to hight)?

    Marc

    1. G’day Marc,
       I’m not sure how to answer the first part of your question. Lower compared to what?
       The correct seat height is the correct seat height whether it be high or low when compared to some other frame of reference.

       Re your second question; yes, often when there is a right side bias which is at least in part driven by a lifetime of functioning with a shorter right leg, shimming the cleat works fine but doesn’t address any of the mechanical differences (tighter right hamstrings, glutes and hip flexors; tigher left side low back and QL) and neurological differences (left cerebellum motor control dominance) that are common by product of a shorter right leg. These can be in part addressed with a high quality bike fit but really need to be addressed separately off the bike.

       1. Steve,
          Sorry for the confusion…What I meant by “lower” is would it benefit lowering the saddle if someone continues to favor their right side (after being shimmed for short leg.) Could a saddle height that is too high be the cause of “right bias” issues?

       2. G’day Marc,
          Absolutely. If the seat is too high, it is rare to see a rider sit squarely on the seat and overextend both legs equally. The great majority of the time, they will hang towards one side, most often the right and overextend the other leg even more so.

          In your case, you’ve mentioned having a shorter right leg. I’d suggest doing this. Read “How To Avoid Bike Fit Hell” and use those steps. Then start with the fitting posts; the Foot Correction series, Seat Height, Seat Setback, Cleat Position and lastly Bar Position and work through them methodically. That will take a while and numerous little experiments, so keep a diary as suggested in Bike Fit Hell.

          If you are methodical and don’t rush, you will get somewhere. At the same time, work to identify structural differences between left and right sides and get a quality stretching regime in place to tackle what you find. If you have a short leg, it would also be a good idea to experiment with a heel lift in your walking shoes on the short legged side.

18. Hello Steve
    I have slowly but surely been making my way through your blog.
    I am a 43 year old male and have been struggling with some issues for a couple of years now including pain above my pelvis on the right side; intermittent ITB pain at the right knee and ongoing tightness across the right hip and up to the spine on that same side.
    I race endurance MTB and also took up road racing just this year.
    I have tried to adjust my saddle height going by your method but am obviously not skilled enough to be able to notice the “loss of control that you mention”. However I am well aware that I sit to one side on the saddle as I can feel greater pressure on one side.
    Is there another way I can assess my saddle height?
    Video camera?
    If so, should it be set up from the side, behind, both or some other position?

    Thanks in advance for your insights.

    1. G’day Stephen,
       Self assessment can be tough depending on the person
       and the issues. Yes, by all means take some footage. You will need views from front, rear, overhead rear and each side.

       What you are looking for from the rear is pelvic movement, whether it is more pronounced on one side than the other and whether you sit centred on the seat.

       What you are looking for from the sides is to compare degree of leg extension and fluency between sides. Additionally any differences between arm and shoulder position are important.

       What you are looking for from the front is whether the knees track vertically or not.

       From what you have said, you either have functionally or measurably shorter right leg OR you are dropping the left hip.

       1. Thanks for the response Steve.
          I have had a few “fits” up here in QLD and these have been inconclusive about the different length legs. 1 has suggested that I do have a shorter leg but he ended up packing out my left shoe (BG fitter). The others have not felt that either of my legs were any shorter.
          None of the “fits” gave me any improvement and 1 BG fit was basically unrideable. I have to agree with a comment ou made to Martin someewhere else in your blog where you indicated that you had nobody up here you would recommend.

          Sounds like I need to get someone to be my film crew over the weekend or else get myself on a plane to see you.

       2. G’day Stephen,
          I’m sorry to hear that. Quality bike fitters are hard to
          find, and not just in Queensland. The one thing I would suggest is that you provide feedback to the people you weren’t happy with. If you don’t, they believe they’ve done the job well because no one tells them otherwise. Feedback is necessary for people to learn.

          Let me know if you get stuck.

19. Thanks again Steve.
    Will let you know how I get along.

20. Steve
    Just back from a masseuse I was recommended.
    He tells me my QL, TFL and whatever muscle/tendon it is that joins into the front of the hip are all stupidly tight and so we are working on this.

    1. G’day Stephen,
       I assume you are talking about the iliacus. If the TFL,
       QL and iliacus are super tight on one side (though you don’t say which) you won’t be able to sit squarely on the seat until they are freed up.

       1. Oops sorry.
          Right side.

21. Hi Steve

    I sit to the left of the saddle by about 2cm (yes 2cm!). Its alot, and I am amazed at how I simply can’t sit square on the seat! I have had a retul bike fit which was utterly useless in my opinion.

    Is there anyone in the UK with your knoweldge who can help me out?

    I have seen a physio who didnt really help much. I seem to be fine from all the assessments he did off the bike. Its only when I get on the bike that it becomes obvious.

    Would really like to find a solution. Which people: chiros, physios etc… would you suggest that I see.

    From previous tests (no x-rays etc..) no 1 has mentioned a LLD.

    Thanks

    1. G’day Tom,
       contact Scherrit Knoesen at The Bike Whisperer in Ealing,
       London. He has trained here and knows his stuff.

22. Thanks Steve

    Would you advise I go and see any other profesionals (such as chiro, physio) ahead of going to see sherritt? Or would it be better to see sherritt straight away?

    Thanks

    Tom

    1. G’day Tom,
       that’s an open ended question because I don’t know enough
       about you to know why you sit off centre so radically. Where are located?

23. I am located in London. I am just afraid that I go and get a bike fit and come away with a recomendation to go and see a physio etc…

    1. G’day Tom,
       do you know any good physios, chiros etc?
       If so, by all means give them a try first.
       If you don’t, ring Scherrit and talk to him. He may be able to point you in the direction of someone competent. That conversation with him will also help you determine whether you want to see him for a fitting session.

24. Steve
    Just wanted to give you an update.
    My Chiro and Masseuse (who both work out of the same office) both believe that they know what the overall issue is with my back and are working together to get it sorted.
    I have already noted a marked improvement to the “pain” in my back.
    But I have also been watching my shadow while riding and have noticed a substantial “hitch” upwards of my right hip while riding.

    1. G’day Steve,
       I’m glad that you have found some help but can you be more
       specific about what you mean by ‘hitch’ please?

25. Hi Steve
    By hitch I mean that I see it move upward (toward my shoulder) as my knee on that same side moves up through the pedal stroke.
    I dont see this on my left side.

    1. G’day Steve,
       Something is awry. Do you have full range of movement in
       that hip, knee and ankle?
       If yes, then I would guess that your right sacro iliac joint is jammed up. When that happens, the low back, hip and pelvis on that side tend to work as a unit rather than semi independently.

       1. Steve
          That hip tends to pinch on the side when riding.
          If I had to say where I would suggest that this pic is close but it is perhaps a little higher than this pic shows.
          http://www.sports-injury-info.com/image-files/hip-pain-snapping-hip.jpg

          Before I talk to my Chiro I will set my bike up on the trainer and watch myself in a mirror (or get someone to video me) to confirm that what I see in the shadow is actually happening.

       2. Steve, what you’ve circled is your ITB. If it is firing up on the right side, then you are dropping the left hip. This may also explain the right hip rising on the right up stroke; the left hip is dropping at the same time. Very likely and worth checking out.

       3. Had my wife look at me on the trainer tonight.
          She tells me that I lean to the left and that my left hip drops slightly (one as the result of the other I guess).

       4. G’day Steve,
          The challenge now for you is to find out why. Either your
          seat is too high (common) or some other factor is the problem. If not seat height, the most common reasons are poor flexibility or asymmetric flexiblity and / or lack of foot correction. Either of those will cause you to attempt to compensate, and as you read the site, you’re probably sick of me saying that all patterns of compensation increase any tendency to asymmetry.

          Read the seat height posts and if you’re convinced that isn’t the problem, find a good structural health professional and have a global assessment to find out what is going on and plan a solution path.

       5. Cheers Steve
          Have just been through your seat height method and have dropped my saddle about 15mm (also installed a new set of Speedplay according to your recommended setup instructions at the same time).
          Flexibility is described as hyper flexible by my masseuse and Physio.
          At the moment that leaves foot correction but I really have not done much riding at all since changing the seat height.
          Should this see an immediate change?
          We are still working on my QL, TFL, Psoas and SI joint issues so I am unsure whether to continue further with fit or get the back sorted out.
          Chicken/Egg.

       6. G’day Steve,
          ‘Hyperflexible but with TFL, psoas, QL and SIJ issues’ sounds to me like posture and stability are your major issues and that should be and I hope is, the major thrust of your treatment and rehab regime.

          As you say, a chicken and egg situation. It is not possible to be definitive without personal contact and knowledge of you but I would encourage you to keep riding and sorting out your position providing:
          1. That you are not causing yourself pain.
          And
          2. That riding isn’t setting you back on your road to self improvement.

       7. Thanks for being so generous with your time and answers.
          I am really enjoying your blog and have gotten a lot out of it.
          Unfortunately, like others, I am probably partly to blame for the amount of time you are having to devote to it as I have been promoting that people read it before they go and get fitted by BG, Retul etc.

          Ordered a set of e-Soles from you last night so there is another step forward.

          Somewhere I have a copy of your Sitting Pretty DVD’s. Time to find them again.

       8. G’day Steve,
          When I decided to update our site into it’s present format, I didn’t think it would take so much of my (and Jason’s time). I’m going to have to find a way to reduce the time commitment needed in answering questions. Not sure how yet; all ideas welcome.
          However, thank you for your positive thoughts and for spreading the word. It all helps.

26. Steve,
    Can’t begin to tell you how much I enjoy this blog. Very helpful both as a rider and as a PT/bike fitter. I had read nearly all your printed information on pelvis asymmetry and one thing that I have not seen you speak much of is using a longer pedal spindle length for a rider who appears to have a unilateral hip restriction or locked up SI (say left side for example purposes) whose knee may deviate outward at the top of the stroke (Because the hip/SI will not rotate upward anymore) then track back medial towards the top tube on the down stroke following the foot attached to the pedal. It seems that this ER/abd of the left hip could cause the right pelvis to drop down and forward viewed as a right side bias potentially mistaken as a functionally rt.short leg. Would it make sense to place the Lt. foot out further from the crank more in line with the path of the hip and therefore knee? In my mind this could improve the tracking of the left leg and creating greater symmetry on the seat? In my practice as a PT who dabbles in bike fit I see quite a few folks with Total hip Arthroplasty or have Hip OA and to a lesser degree SI dysfunction that seem to have this presentation. I have often tried shims on the dropping pelvic side to only still see asymmetry on the saddle. I have not used wider spindles, but notice Paul Swift using these things like there is a limited supply. Obviously, in the perfect world improving the hip or SI motion would be the ideal choice, but this may take some time or be impossible. Is this longer spindle idea at all feasable? Hope my questions are clear.
    Tim Holder

    1. G’day Tim,
       Very good question. Yes, I’ve done it; fitted a longer axle or a pedal spacer on one side only. Usually for circumstances such as you describe and also for people who are marking time before a hip replacement. As you say, it is not a ‘fix’ but if it helps someone to be able to enjoy their life more than if not riding, then my view is ‘do it’.

       There is a school of thought in some circles in the U.S. that believes that a *large* percentage of riders need a longer axle one side, more commonly the left. My experience is dissimilar. I get a number of people who have been previously fitted elsewhere with a pedal spacer or longer axle on one side only and the vast majority of cases, am able to remove them, once various challenges to pelvic stability are addressed. The most common of those is too high a seat height.

       As a physio, you will see a much higher number of people than I do with serious issues that will demand an asymmetric position as the least worst of only bad options. Better to ride pain free or in less pain than to not ride at all. Speedplay make their Zero models with axle lengths up to 1/2″ longer than standard. Addtionally, pedal spacers are available in 20, 25 and 30mm.
       How well it works in any individual case, you won’t know until you try, so you may as well experiment.

       1. Steve,

          My take on this (for whatever it may be worth) is that in the US there is a propensity for technology to solve problems immediately. Rather than isolating a problem to physiology, working on the issue and seeing improvement, most Americans want a fix yesterday. To that end, it is both easier and more efficient to treat the symptom … so a spacer allows one to ride with their current physiology more efficiently rather than taking the time and effort to confront the underlying problem.

          Or maybe living upside down (you are, after all on the bottom half of the globe), gravity causes you different problems 🙂

          Craig

       2. G’day Craig,
          While I agree with the general thrust of what you are saying, Tim is treating people with severe and sometimes permanent issues. When this is the case, you do what you can to help people enjoy their life more. Riding is better than not riding providing it is not causing more harm.

          I think too, that a major issue is that many bike fitters see a difference in function between sides and ‘fix’ the problem with as you say, no regard to root causes. If there is an obvious difference in function between side, the most important view is the rear one to see what the pelvis is doing. Not many fitters bother.

          Tim is switched on enough that he would be doing that, but is dealing with those with severe problems.

27. Hi Steve,

    Following the blog with interest! I have videoed myself, actually got my son to do it! I seem to have a slight right side bias but I have had pain in my right knee on and off, since really starting road cycling this year. I have had a few fits and seen and osteopath who didnt really find anything terribly abnormal. She said I might have a tightness around the hips and gave me some exercises to do…not sure if they have helped. In the past I have played around with saddle height, cleat position etc which the last fitter seemed to think looked ok on the video he took etc when he set me up. I have noticed that the inner right side of my cycling shorts is a little more worn than the left?!

    I live in the UK and have already spent quite a bit of money with not much success. Any ideas you may have would be greatly appreciated.

    David

    1. G’day David,
       Wear on the inside leg of the left side of your knicks not present on the right side of your knicks means that you are hanging, twisting or both to the right. You need to be methodical.
       Here’s a plan of attack.
       1. Establish whether there is a measurable leg length discrepancy or not.
       2. Find out whether you have any food allergies. (No, not kidding; from time to time I see people with low level allergic responses who can’t sit squarely on a seat until they remove whatever the allergen is from their diet.

       3. Find out what the postural / structural problems are globally and work to address them. Unless you are markedly hemispheric motor control dominant (not that common) you are probably taking a body that functions asymmetrically and putting it onto a bike, which as a symmetrical apparatus, allows us less tolerance for asymmetry.

       4. Re 3, if you don’t stretch properly and regularly, that would be a place to start. Most people who do stretch, stretch too hard. Low intensity stretches held for a reasonable duration work best for most people. If you are sore the next day, you have stretched too hard. If you don’t know where to start, and without touting for your biz, there is a $10 Ebook download in the Store called ‘Stretching and Flexibility’ by F and K McDaniel. That is
       the routine I have used for good results for some years.

       5. If you get really stuck, contact Scherrit Knoesen of The Bike Whisperer
       in Ealing. I am confident he will come up with ways to stop your knee from
       hurting. Someone using video analysis during a bike fit is often evidence
       that they don’t know what they are looking at with the naked eye and use the
       info gained from the motion capture to apply a formula approach, rather than
       an individually tailored approach.

       Lastly, remember that you will only function as well on a bike as you
       function off the bike.

       1. Hi Steve
          Thanks for your comprehensive reply!

          The wear I mentioned on my shorts is on the right leg (inside), does this mean I am hanging to the left? The right knee is where the pain is. My left leg/knee has always been fine no matter what the saddle height/position or cleat position is!

          Also, maybe a daft question, but where can I find out if a leg is longer than the other? Is it possible to make a deduction on which leg may be shorter having the wear on the right inside leg?

          I’ve started doing some more stretches and will hopefully make it a habit!

          Thanks again for your advice,

          David

       2. Sorry David,
          My confusion about which side. I shouldn’t be answering emails at all hours. Yes, unusual wear on one side usually indicates that the opposite side hip is dropping and dragging the more worn side against the seat. I’ve seen exceptions where the increased wear is on the hip dropping side but it isn’t common.

          Re leg length; there are a couple of ways but the one I use, which seems to correlate well with x rays better than 90% of the time is a bit complex to transmit via email. I may have to do a post on it. It is hard to self assess with any reasonable accuracy. If you have a good chiropractor, physiotherapist, masseur or osteopath handy, they should be able to make an assessment. The problem with external measures is that there is typically a plus / minus error potential of 5mm which in the case of small discrepancies, means that you are no better off in terms of knowing the state of play.

          After whomever you pick has assessed you and if they think there is a measurably shorter leg, have an x ray or scan to determine relative bone lengths. They are usually accurate, though they don’t account for any differences in foot morphology which can add or subtract a functional component to leg length. Most apparent leg length differences can be resolved by stretching properly.

       3. Thanks Steve
          I’m seeing and osteopath tomorrow so it’ll be interesting to see what they say.

          If my left side is dropping could that lead to pain in the right knee?

          I’ll let you know what they find out!

       4. G’day David,
          In answer to your question; yes, quite possibly. One of the interesting things about human body’s is that there is a plethora of potential ways to compensate for any challenge.

       5. Hi Steve,
          I saw an osteopath today and he had a couple of points.
          He thought I may have a functional LLD of 1mm on the left side which he didnt think was too important, but he found that I have hyper flexible knees which he thinks may be the main problem in that they might be inherently unstable (I cant remember the name but the rear ligaments in particular). He also thought that the insertion points of the ITB and other tendons nearby seemed inflamed and there may be a tightness there.

          He therefore gave me some stabilising exercises and recommened stretching and worked on loosening the tension in that area.

          I guess I’d like your opinion if possible, on whether a 1mm LLD needs shiming and if there is anything I can do on the bike that might benefit my knees eg lowering seat height?

          Thanks for you help and patience!

       6. G’day David,
          I doubt whether I could accurately determine a 1mm leg length difference. In fact I wouldn’t be prepared to tell anyone that they had a 1mm difference. That is so small, that if it is accurate, it is meaningless. Differences in foot morphology between left and right and functional differences between left and right sides will add or subtract a much larger functional component to an LLD than 1mm.

          How to stabilise your knees on bike?
          Firstly, the ITB inflammation that your osteo noted. ITB issues, if caused by riding the bike, always mean poor stability on seat, which in turn means that your hips, pelvis and lower back aren’t working as well as they should or could. So that needs addressing. If the ITB issues are caused off the bike, they still need addressing because that lack of function will transfer onto the bike and cause a challenge to the plane of movement of your knees. Knees are more or less a single plane joint so they don’t respond well to anything that challenges their plane of movement when riding.

          Next, you need to balance the loads on the knee from front and rear. If you work through the posts on Seat Height, Seat Setback, Foot Correction and Cleat Position with a bit of method, you will balance the loads on the knee without any problem.

       7. Thanks for your reply Steve

          Yes he didnt think the approximate LLD was important.

          The ITB issues are definitely bike related. Never had a problem before! Is working on seat stability a self help thing or do I need an osteopath for that?

          I’ll work through your other posts!

          Thanks for all your help, it’s been a great help!

       8. G’day David,
          Generally speaking (there are exceptions) ITB problems on a
          bike arise from uncontrolled pelvic movement. There is always an individual flavour to the problem but contributing factors can be anything that destablises the riders. Under that description comes any parameter of position or foot corrections. I would start with seat height as it is the most common problem I see and then work through the other posts on position and correction.

       9. Hi Steve,
          A couple of further points/questions! I have been working through your post re seat height and setback etc. So I have moved my cleats back, moved saddle back 10mm and dropped it too.
          I have noticed that my right heel seems to drop more than the left (my right knee has been getting the pain) also my left shoulder seems to be higher than my right?? I seem to remember that this was the situation before the moving on the seat etc. Does this point to anything?
          My second question is that after the changes I noticed some pain in my right calf/shin. Is it normal to have some discomfort in other areas when making a change… does it take some time for the body to get used to a position before you can really see if any changes have been effective?
          I’d be interested to hear your opinions if you have the time to reply!

       10. G’day David,
           If you are convinced you have a good cleat position but are dropping the right heel more, it is likely that you are chasing more extension of the right leg. There are two overwhelming possibilities as to why.
           1. That you are dropping the right hip and which means less extension of the knee and the extra heel drop on the right is your attempt to compensate for that.
           2. You have a longer right leg.
           Of the two, I think 1. is far more likely and your comment about your left shoulder sitting higher is likely confirmation of that. Often when a rider drops or rotates their right hip forward and down on each RH pedal downstroke, the torso has to twist somewhat to accommodate that meaning the the arm on the opposite side of the hip drop has to reach further and an has a straighter elbow, which often means a higher shoulder.

           What I suggest you do is to put your bike on a trainer and ride with your shirt off in front of an observer. Have a look at the post Right Side Bias for pointers on what your observer is looking for. If as I suspect, you find that you are not sitting squarely, you need to identify the reasons why and work to resolve them. Common reasons are general lack of flexibility in hips and lower back and tighter right side hip flexors than left side hip flexors. Occasionally lack of arch support can be part of the picture as well.

28. A thought on the “why”: My legs used to feel perfect years ago & it wasn’t until years of commuting (driving) that I eventually developed the right hip drop. It doesn’t matter what country (I’m in USA), but isn’t the accelerator pedal always under the right foot? Could this propensity just have gotten used to dropping our right hip? I wonder how many people who DON’T drive have the problem…

    1. G’day CCK,
       Yes, accelerator pedal is always on the right and yes, I’m sure this plays a part in some people. I’ve noticed that the seating position forced upon me in some cars I’ve owned causes a tightening of the right psoas on longer trips which needed stretching out. I’m quite flexible so others may be more affected than I have been. It isn’t the full story though. I see a lot of juniors not old enough to drive and far too many of them drop their right hip.

       1. This is something that’s always interested me and one of the reasons I made sure my newest car was a manual… To help even out my left side.

       2. G’day Jason,
          I’m sure that it is a factor. Just not the whole story.
          I’ve been doing a bit of research on right side bias and will post an addendum to this post in the foreseeable future about what I’ve come across.

29. Hi Steve.

    While I was looking for some info about bike fitting, luckily, I came across your site. Amazing all the useful information you are providing and the way you face the bike fitting.

    Well, after reading some of your articles, I’m learning some interesting things. I’ve always felt that I wasn’t pedalling properly but I’ve kept on like this for many years. (I’m 45 now and doing endurance mountain biking for the last 20 years)

    I think everything comes from my LLD. What I know is that my right leg is longer (X ray shows a left tibia 9mms shorter, but the left hip is 15 mms lower than the right). My left foot is 4 mms longer, and sometimes I get some ITB pain on the left side. I feel that I’m sitting with more pressure on the right side but as I’ve read in the Right Side Bias article, normally, the hip that drops is the one with the shorter leg, so I’m a bit confused about what to do.

    Many Thanks from Spain

    Genci

    1. G’day Genci,
       You’re right, normally a rider with an LLD drops the hip of
       the shorter leg. However, a substantial minority drop the hip of the longer leg. If you line up 20 people with a 9mm shorter left tibia, you will find 20 different ways of compensating for that. Your way is not the most common and is also the hardest to resolve because you have embedded a motor patter that has you favouring the longer leg. The left ITB pain and your other observations confirm that. ITB pain caused by cycling is almost always the result of dropping the other hip.

       That you stand with the right hip 15mm higher than the 9mm shorter left leg suggests you stand with your right knee locked out and your left knee bent.
       Here is a suggested “To do” list as to how to resolve the issue.

       Get a pair of mtb shoes where the sole is totally separate from the upper. That is, the sole is not molded up and around the shoe upper. Sidi Dragons are one example but there are others. Find a high quality bootmaker and have him heat and remove the sole of the left shoe and fit a 9mm high, dense EVA foam build up between sole and upper and then reglue the whole thing back together. Fully compensate because the lower limb is vertical or close to vertical for most of the pedal stroke meaning that the difference needs to be compensated for. The half size difference in feet shouldn’t be significant unless there is a large difference in the relative proportions
       between feet. Done well, the bootmaker’s work will look as though the shoe
       came from the factory like this. We have had this done here by a local
       bootmaker many times and it works well. That will get you started towards
       symmetry on the bike.

       Off the bike is at least as important. The movement patterns you have
       learned in a lifetime of walking around with a shorter leg carry on to the
       bike to varying extents. You need a heel lift or other form of build up in
       all of your walking shoes to square your pelvis up. If you are not using one
       now, this may have to be introduced gradually over time to allow your body
       to adapt. Above all, start a quality stretching regime; Yoga or Pilates, if
       well taught are ideal. You will find after 45 years of living with a shorter
       left leg that there a differences in flexibility between sides. These need
       to be balanced out as much as possible for you to approach functional
       symmetry on the bike.

       Best of luck.

       1. Hi Steve.

          I always thought that I had to compensate some of the lld in the shoe, but with mtb shoes is quite difficult. Right now I’m using Spec shoes, so maybe I’ll have to change shoe brand. Besides Sidi, is there any other that offer separated upper from sole?

          Stretching. I think that’s not a problem. I learned that I have to stretch long time ago, so for me it’s as important as riding. In fact, my osteopath always says that I’m too flexible and that my body has adapted to the lld off the bike, I guess it’s true as I don´t have any kind of pain when I’m not riding.

          When that 9mms are corrected, will I continue dropping my right hip?

          Thanks for the reply

       2. G’day Genci,
          That’s a tough question to answer sight unseen. I would
          like to say no but I’m not sure about your osteopaths advice. I believe what he is saying for walking around off the bike but any accommodations you have made with a 9mm LLD will be asymmetric. There can be no other way. However, that fundamental asymmetry and mode of compensation will then carry onto the bike. Compensating mechanically for the shorter leg should make a big difference on the bike but it depends on what left / right differences of function and flexibility a lifetime of having an uncompensated for 9mm shorter leg has on you. That will add or subtract a functional component from the LLD.

          Here’s what I suggest. Go to a rubber store and buy some 3mm thick rubber sheet. Remove the insole from the shoe of your short leg and use it as a template to cutout 3 rubber copies of the insole. Stand barefooted on one of the rubber copies and use a pen to mark where the front of the 1st and 5th metatarsophalangeal joints are. Now place the pen between the other toes as far back as you can get it vertically and place a mark between each toe.
          Now connect up those marks with your pen and cut off everything forward of that on your rubber ‘insole’. Use that rubber ‘insole’ as a template to cut the other two to the same shape.

          Use these 3 x 3mm thick rubber insoles underneath your existing insole. Try
          3mm, try 6mm and try the full 9mm. This will make your shoe very tight and
          the purpose of cutting the front off the rubber insoles is so that the foot
          will be supported from heel to the front of the MTP joints but still leave
          some toe wiggling room. Once you have experimented extensively it will
          become obvious whether you need a 3mm, 6mm or 9mm build up in your shoe.

          I’m not an expert on what is available in mtb shoes and so apart from Sidi
          am not sure what other brands have a completely separate sole. I fit a lot
          of mtb riders but not nearly as many as I do road, track and triathletes and
          so am not as on top of mtb shoe availability and so cannot recommend other
          alternatives. They have to be out there so try a few shops and see what is
          available.

       3. Hi Steve

          I guess that once the LLD is corrected in the left leg, my right hip will continue dropping. So, what do you think it’d be the way to try to sit as square as possible?

          After watching your hip droppers’ videos, I decided to check if I’m in that group. And yes, I am: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLnDWov-BBM

          Thanks, again.

       4. G’day Genci,
          You’re correct and to really sort yourself out, you have to
          stop dropping the right hip. I need to explain. Most people with a shorter leg will drop the hip on the short legged side. A minority drop the hip of the longer legged side and you are one of this minority. The question is why?

          You will likely find that a lifetime of compensating in this way has caused difference in muscle tightness on each side of the hip, pelvis and lower back. These need to be identified and equalised. There are two ways to do that. A good structural health professional or functional trainer should be able to assess you and suggest a stretching and strengthening regime for self improvement. Alternately, find a *good* Yoga or Pilates class with a quality teacher.

          Additionally, it could be that the pattern of compensation that you have evolved has caused you to wire yourself up to do as you are doing and that you are now left cerebellum motor control dominant. The left cerebellum controls the right side of the body. If that is the case, and I don’t know that it is but I do see more than a few, then a Feldenkrais practitioner is the way to go. Failing that, get hold of a small book “Awareness Through Movement” by Moshe Feldenkrais. It is out of print but there are plenty of 2nd hand copies available on Amazon.

       5. Thanks Steve.

          I’ll do my homework -based on your advice- and I’ll let you know if I finally get to the symmetry on the seat.

          Genci

30. Steve, anyone you would recommend as a fitter in the southeastern US? I am located in Birmingham, Alabama and would like to have someone take a look at my setup. Thanks for any help!

    1. G’day Jkarrasch,
       The closest person to you that I can personally
       recommend is Jerry Gerlich of Castle Hill Cycles in Austin Texas. Jerry’s email address is jerry@castlehillcycles.com

31. Steve, I read this when you first posted this, but have to admit I haven’t gone back through all the subsequent comments, so apologies if I am asking something that has already been covered.

    I’m not conscious of sitting asymmetrically when I ride (but as you point out, few are), but I’ve noticed just in the past few days that when I sit up and ride no hands that I consistently move over to the right of the seat, so that the bike ends up leaning a bit to the left. When I am in that position (it might take 15 or 20 seconds to stabilise in the off-centre position) I’m *not* conscious of feeling more pressure on either side of my sit bones (saddles are a Fizik Aliante and an older Selle Italia TurboMatic 4, so they both have a bit of curve), but nor am I when I at least think I am centred when riding normally.

    I’m confident my seat is not too high – it’s probably a good 10mm lower than I used to have it, and there’s clearly still a decent angle in my knees at the bottom of the pedal stroke.

    I’ve taken to doing yoga in the past few months, and I’ve noticed that whilst I am generally reasonably flexible for a 38yo bloke, the one area that I am clearly much less flexible than the mostly 30yo women in my class is bending forward from the hips (hamstrings are okay in comparison).

    In the absence of further info what does that suggest to you about my body?

    1. G’day Michael,
       There is a LOT of possibilities and combinations that
       could potentially explain what you’re noted. Leg length differences, functional differences…………with some it can even be the way they have ‘wired’ themselves up to favour one side.

       Here is what I would suggest though. Firstly, if you have a good physio, chiro or similar, establish whether there is a leg length difference (and I’m going to have to post on the LLD’s sooner or later) or not. If there is, you need to compensate for that with a shim.

       Next, if the answer is no, establish whether there is a lateral pelvic tilt or not. 96% of the people I see display a lateral pelvic tilt. Most don’t have a LLD. If some one can’t stand symmetrically it is unlikely that they can sit on a bike symmetrically.

       Lastly, get hold of a book named Athletic Body in Balance by Gray Cook and put yourself through the screening assessments in that book. If you fail any of the tests (and most will), the book provides a road map of corrective movement exercises to fix the problems identified.

       1. Thanks for your reply. I don’t have a physio (nor a psychic, as my spell checker helpfully corrected it to), so I’ll start with the book and I’ll see how I go.

          Of course in composing a question at 3 in the morning I left out probably the most important bit of information: whilst my left leg tracks in a plane, my right leg sticks out at the top of the stroke, and brushes the top tube near the bottom. It’s been doing it for so long that that I clean forgot about it! If going through the book doesn’t clear it up I might come back here (or to Sydney)…

       2. G’day Michael,
          Here’s an answer at 3 am too!
          What you say about your right leg lateral movement makes it very likely that you are dropping your left hip. The question is to work out whether this is as a result of a difference in leg length or not.

32. Hi Steve

    I have been an avid reader of your articles for a while. After reading an article from yourself and Paul Swift, I have installed a “centring” device onto my seat. Net result is I sit much more square, am more powerful, comfortable and don’t get any chafing. I can also ride in the same position for many miles and don’t have to adjust to go from hoods, drops etc… overall, very happy.

    One thing I am a little worried about is that since sitting more centre, my right Achilles has become a little stiff after rides. There is no pain during the ride, but I notice it is a little tight after the ride.

    For reference, I used to sit far to the left. Now I am sitting much more centre (i.e. have moved towards the right).

    I have checked saddle height, and I am not dropping my heel on the right hand side, nor do I feel too stretched. Cleat is about 12-14mm behind ball of foot and it allows me toe out.

    Do you think the new position may simply be using parts of my calf I had previously not been using?

    For reference, I can run pain free, and am beating power PB’s

    I have had the centring device in place for 12 days. Clocking around 200 miles. About 2 hours at threshold.

    Pain went away after initial Achilles onset, then I changed to this new position and it is noticeable again after riding.

    1. G’day Ajtweety,
       I’m not sure what article you refer to but I know what
       you mean. I showed that method to PS a couple of years ago and maybe he wrote something about it. Dunno. You’re right in that it works bigtime for those who cannot sit centred on the seat. Good on you for using one because many people struggle with the idea of having something like that on their seat.

       Re the Achilles tendon; given you were sitting over to the left previously, it is unlikely that you are over reaching with the right leg, and more likely that the different plane of movement is loading you differently. One word of caution. You say your power numbers have gone up which is good and to be expected with better symmetry, but after a major change in symmetry, you really should take is easy for 3 weeks on the bike to allow your body to adapt to altered pedaling mechanics and muscle firing patterns without strain. We adapt best at low intensity.

33. Thanks Steve

    I am also experimenting with cleat placement to allow for toe in/out adjustability. Presumably since I am now sitting more centred, those are the kind of things that need minor adjustment?

    I am slowly (very slowly), making small changes to see what difference it makes. Being sure to document everything and changing back if it doesn’t work. I will keep you updated with my progress.

    Since I am doing this properly, I may also follow a non-gluten diet for a while to see if that as any impact (as I have seen you suggest before).

    Although more centred, I still see my left knee comes in, and my right knee goes out.

    Will different muscles need firing now I am in a better position? A physio noticed that my Iliopsoas (spelling?) was weaker on my right side and had me sitting on a table with my legs hanging off, and then lifting my right leg slightly off the table while trying to keep my core still. He also said my TFL was quite tight (more so on the left)

    Thanks

    1. G’day AJtweety,
       For convenience I’ve copied your questions and answered
       below.

       *Q: Presumably since I am now sitting more centred, those are the kind of things that need minor adjustment?*
       A: Often but not always

       Re the gluten free diet; if your are concerned about dietary factors, and they do affect a significant minority, eliminate all cow dairy products as well. I don’t know whether you need to do this or not, but time and again I find that if riders with persistent issues ditch all wheat and dairy food, they begin to make progress.

       *Q:Will different muscles need firing now I am in a better position? * A: Probably, or more likely that they will fire at different relative intensities.

       Basically, the reason that your feet point in different directions on the pedals is because your pelvis is not functioning symmetrically. You have used a mechanical aid to sit more squarely on the seat which is fine, but now the task is to improve function to the point where you can sit squarely without the need of a device.

34. I read your article on right side bias with great interest. I have been experiencing saddle discomfort for some time. I have narrowed it down to primarily chafing, rubbing on the left side in the crease between the butt and leg. From time to time I have also developed a sore in the same area. I have suspected that my set-up is uneven at best. I have had friends look at my set-up, who have said that i am sitting a bit to the left on the saddle. I also have knee problems with my right leg which have resulted in an uneven peddle stroke.
    I guess my question is where do I go from here? I have been to a number of fitters who have noticed no problems. In their defense, I had not diagnosed my problems to this extent, so they were unaware of the problems only being on the right side.
    I still ride 6-7 thousad miles a year, so this is not a critical issue. I’m just trying to get as comfortable as possible .
    Any suggestions would be appreciated.

    1. G’day SCotton,
       A good fitter should be able to see an asymmetric
       pedalling style before many riders are aware of it themselves. Your issue is a common one and I would be surprised if the right knee problems aren’t a consequence of your tendency to sit to the left. What to do?

       I would read these posts in the following order
       1. How To Avoid Bike Fit Hell
       2. Seat Height – How Hard Can It Be? and Addendum to Seat Height – How Hard Can It Be?
       3. The 3 Foot Correction posts; Part 1 Arch Support, Part 2 Wedging, Part 3 Shimming.
       4. Power To The Pedal – Cleat Position
       5. Behind Bars

       If you are thoughtful and apply that info and still have a problem once you have gone through all of that, let me know.

35. Hi Steve,
    I have had an x-ray and it indicates that I have a short right leg by 8mm and have a 8mm shim on that side. But on the bike under load I tend to sit forward with the left hip and therefore the left hip is slightly internally rotated and the left foot feels like it collapses in and I have all the pressure on the outside while the right tracks fairly good, but sometime it swoops away from the center line of the bike on the upstroke.

    I was wondering what some of the causes could be for this, as I thought a short right leg would cause “right side bias” problems? I am slightly tighter on the left side in the psoas, piriformis after a knee injury on that side that cause me to stop stretching. Thanks!

    1. G’day Mvergona,
       When a rider has a short leg, the most common
       response is to drop that hip and / or roll it forward on each pedal down stroke on that side. You are doing the opposite which while not rare, isn’t common and is a tough one to fix. Here’s what I suggest.

       1. Fit an appropriate heel lift to all of your walking shoes. I don’t know how much time you spend riding but it is likely that you spend far more time walking or standing. Doing so with a leg length difference sets the pattern for how you function on the bike. You can buy generic heel lifts from a Chemist and I would suggest starting low, with say, 3mm. Once you are accustomed to that, you can increase the height of the heel lift. If there is any doubt in your mind about what you are doing or what outcome you are experiencing, then see a good podiatrist.

       2. Institute all of the advice in the Foot Correction series with particular emphasis on arch support.

       3. Follow the advice in the posts on Seat Height.

       4. Stretch regularly. Hold the stretches for longish periods but at LOW intensity. If you are unsure what you are doing, find a quality yoga or Pilates class.

       5. Get hold of a book named The Athletic Body in Balance by Gray Cook. Put
       yourself through the movement screen assessment process and fix any
       problems identified.

       By the time you have completed those steps you should be sitting much more
       symmetrically on the bike which will resolve your problem.

       1. Thank you Steve,

          I definitely need to institute the Foot Correction again. I believe that I do not have enough arch support. Because in order to “feel” stable in the saddle I have 3 wedges on the left side and none on the right. I think that I am using the wedges to help my foot from collapsing (or at least change the plane of the collapse) because without the wedges on that side I feel terribly asymmetrical, and it is odd how I feel more stable with them (even though I sit with the left hip forward).

          Wouldn’t the saddle height hill test be skewed if there isn’t enough arch support and it collapses under load? If I have a short right (that is compensated for with stack shims) but the left arch collapsed under load, would this theoretically make my left leg shorter? And possibly one of the reasons for my left hip to drop in and forward? These are just thoughts…I like to know what is going on with my body rather than just blindly trying to fix things. please let me know what you think.

       2. G’day Mvergona,
          Yes, get proper arch support. Often when there is a
          noticeable difference in bone length, one arch will collapse more than the other. It can be the short leg or the long leg depending on how the body has adapted. Esoles are the best way to experiment with arch support heights because it is a few seconds work to change the arch support modules. Make sure you buy your Esoles with the black arch support as the highest. In many parts of the world, the black arch support is not included.
          The seat height test wouldn’t be skewed because it is a test of how you are. If you change that, for instance by adding decent arch support, then yes, your seat height may need to change.

          Also yes to what you are saying about a collapsing left arch. In addition, the arch dropping under load will challenge the plane of movement of the knee. It is possible that your tendency to push the left hip forward is a self protection mechanism to keep the left knee tracking properly despite the constant challenge to its plane of movement forced by the dropping left arch.

          So firstly quality arch support. Secondly, reevaluate wedging numbers and placement.

       3. Thanks Steve,

          I have just ordered some ESoles! I see that you highly recommend these so I am excited to try them. Do you use these personally or do you have something that’s more “custom.” Just wondering.

       4. I’ve got Esoles in each pair of cycling shoes. I have had several pair of custom fitted arch support insoles and haven’t been happy in the long term with any of them. The Esoles are an improvement on what I’ve had and I’ve got something in the works that I will post on when it is ready.

       5. My ESoles are on the way and I will use them until you come out with your products…I know they will be state of the art! Thanks Again Steve.

       6. Steve,
          My ESoles just arrived. Should I start with just the arch supports and remove all the wedges I had been using (with my previous insoles that didn’t have arch support)?

          Also, I am going to start with the highest insert on the left because it has the tendency to collapse and roll inward under load because of the lifetime of having a short leg. I think that the right needs a little bit less of an arch.

          Mvergona

       7. Yes, remove all wedges as a starting point. Did your Esoles arrive with the black arch module as the highest option?
          Or only the blue?
          If the blue, try them but if they are not high enough, contact the seller for the black option as they are higher. If you cannot source them, I probably have some I can send you. Alternately, there is another way. Let me know how you get on.

          Start with the arch height that feels a bit too much of a good thing when standing in them. This may be a differing height on each side.

          Once you have determined the arch height and are happy with it, then experiment with wedges. There is an 85% chance that the wedges should be located under the heel and a 10% chance that you need them under the cleat. The remaining 5% is a combination of both.

       8. Thanks Steve,

          I will keep you posted on how I get on. I actually made sure to get the black ones, I had them swap out the lowest arch supports for the highest. But out of curiosity, what is the alternative way? I love learning new things. I will try without wedges and if I feel I need them, I will order your heel wedges. Thanks.

       9. G’day Mvergona,
          If the highest arch support doesn’t seem enough, which
          while uncommon, is not rare, add a layer of gel cork bar tape underneath the base of outer edge of the arch support module. When you put the shoe on, you will feel the difference. Gel cork bartape takes a long time to compress so you should get 3 – 6 months out of that modification before needing to replace.

          Regards,
          Steve

          STEVE HOGG
          COMFORT+EFFICIENCY=PERFORMANCE
          for more, see http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com

          *I apologise if my reply is tardy. We experience periodic email overload and the only thing I can promise is to wade through, mail by mail.*

       10. OK, Just so I am understanding you correctly, put the cork tape underneath the entire insole arch suport (near the sole of the shoes) OR put the cork tape on the underside of the arch support itself (the portion that is directly under the arch of the foot)? Thanks again.

       11. Fit the gel cork tape to the full length of the underside of the inner edge (nearest the crank arm) of plastic arch support module. The gel cork tape will pass over the slotted section in the middle of the base of the arch support.

36. Hi Steve,
    On your DVD, you use an example with your model, Kathy, where she has a slight right side bias. You turn her seat at an angle to resolve this. Maybe it’s just me, but I can’t see which way your turn the nose, left or right?

    I’m thinking that, if her right leg has a longer way to the pedal, you must turn the nose to the left, to move her pelvis slightly to the right. True?

    1. G’day Kasper,
       Kathy sat with the right hip forward. I pointed the seat
       nose slightly off centre to the right to pull the right side of her pelvis back and allow her to sit more symmetrically. This will work if the rider naturally follows the off centre angle that the seat is pointed. Not everyone does in which case they will just constantly rub the inside of their thigh on the seat.

       Have you fitted good arch support and do you stretch regularly?

       1. Hi Steve,
          Thanks for your answer, it makes more sense to me now. I haven’t actually given much thought to arch support, but have read your post about it, which led me to the conclusion that I need to consider it more in depth.

          I do stretch regularly, but have only in the recent months been following the program from the Flexibility of cyclist eBook. So I’ll have to wait a bit for the effects to show.

          I’ll keep working at it, and return if there’s any progress.

37. Hi Steve

    Update from me….

    I have continued to stick with the centering device. Net result is my comfort on the bike has massively improved, power has also improved from more consistent training (and maybe a more even pedal stroke…)

    I have cut Gluten out of my diet, and I feel better for it. I used to get a stitch like pain on the left side of my abdomen. Not any more….

    I feel I have made good progress…

    One issue still is puzzling me.

    When riding softly i.e. not putting much pressure on the pedals, I feel like my left hip is moving forward and maybe down. This doesn’t happen so much when riding hard (presumably because the pressure on the pedals stops this happening?)

    I also find it very hard to ride no handed at low speeds without the same thing happening i.e. rolling to the left.

    This is the last piece of the jigsaw puzzle for me….. any ideas?

    Tom

    1. G’day Tom,
       Glad to hear that you are making progress. Almost certainly
       what you describe is a general stability issue. There may be an on bike solution; lack of ideal foot correction can often play a part in these things, but the problem has to be sorted out off the bike. How we hold ourselves on a bike is a reflection of our general functionality off the bike.

       Get hold of a book named The Athletic Body in Balance by Gray Cook. Run yourself through the self assessment procedures listed in that book. You will either pass or fail the various tasks in the screening process. For the ones you fail, there are graduated series of exercises to increase stability (and if necessary, range of movement) and to fix the problems identified.

38. p.s. My achilles is feeling much better… I think you were right with regards to loading me different and needing to get used to it

    1. G’day Tom,
       you’re on a roll. Hang in there.

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